Suite Talk Episode Two: Hospitality Leadership with Barbara Muckermann

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Sean

Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode on the Suite Talk podcast, where we speak with executive leaders in the hospitality industry. In this video series, we are diving into leadership and talent with top industry voices.

For our second episode, we are excited to welcome Barbara Muckermann. As the CEO of Kempinski Hotels, and former CEO and President atSilversea Cruises, Barbara brings a wealth of experience in leadership, strategic growth, and the evolving talent landscape within the hospitality industry.

Barbara, thank you for joining us.

Barbara

Thank you for having me, Sean.

Sean

It's great to have you on. When I was thinking about this podcast and who I wanted to invite, obviously with you, I think it was during the time when you had just moved to Kempinski from Silversea. I thought, ‘What a phenomenal brand, what a phenomenal career. I'd love to have Barbara on the podcast.’ And I think obviously you have your fair share of experience with leadership, probably from yourself as well as other leaders throughout your career that you've worked with.

I would love to get your insight and approach to leadership. What do you personally think are some of the key attributes that good leaders should have in hospitality?

Barbara

Thank you, Sean. It's an excellent question. And I think that there's never just one answer because the topic deserves much more.

My personal perspective is that it all starts from the team. So you really need to put together the best possible team. And as a leader, you just need to protect them in the sense that you need to allow them to do what they do best. I always thought, you know, my main role is to allow them to do their job, and never micromanage. Trust is absolutely fundamental from a leadership perspective. And if you have gotten the right people and you trust them and you avoid that external or internal influences stop them from doing their job, you will have an incredibly successful company. You will be able to execute on any plan. But this is really, I think, the key.

Sean

Oh, absolutely. It’s something that comes up in a lot of conversations I have: being able to protect your employees and standing by them when it's needed, knowing that you have their back. That really goes above and beyond when it comes to building trust in the leadership.

Barbara

What you're saying is very true, but it also has to do with scale. Because if you think about it, you will never be able to go and manage a bigger company unless you do that. A single individual, as talented as he or she is, cannot do everything. So actually, the bigger the organisation that you're managing and leading, the less you need to do. Because that's the only way to make the organisation successful. And that's when we go back to the key point: that the most important thing is choosing the right people.

Sean

Absolutely.

As well as in your current role, you also have so much prior experience leading people, and you've obviously had a quite an interesting way up through the ranks. I'd be keen to hear – throughout your career, what were the biggest lessons you learned, but also challenges you faced during your journey? And how have those influenced your own leadership style now you’re in the CEO position?

Barbara

I think that the most important thing for me was understanding what my strengths and weaknesses were, and to work very hard on finding coping strategies for the latter, because you never really completely resolve them. I don't think you can ever find a leader who's strong in everything. That would not be human. But you must understand very clearly which are your strengths too, which are very typically also the things you like to do – leveraging those and having a very, very clear sense of the things you're not good at, or maybe that you don't like. And finding very good strategies to manage them. That's a key way to, I think, grow in every work and also scale, in your role.

In terms of challenges, I know it's a common challenge for many women. It's still very, very hard. It's harder if you're a woman. I'm sorry, Sean, but I need to say it. I mean, I found myself in a lot of different settings in which I realised that if you are a woman leader, they always ask more from you. Because at the same time, you also have the family, you have children, you have a household. And it's not that that stuff goes away just because you're a CEO. So I actually am a very strong believer in women leaders because if they made it, it’s because they're really, really good.

Sean Tribull

Oh, absolutely. And it's great that you bring that up, because diversity, equity, and inclusion is something I want to go back to in a moment. And actually, like you said, I think there is still a lack of female leadership at the top position in hospitality, as in a lot of other industries as well. Gilda Alvarado-Perez from Accor made similar points in our previous episode. So it's good to hear that. And I think it's also really important and nice to see someone like yourself in your position bringing up.

It's okay to have weaknesses, as long as you are aware of them and you kind of know as well, on the one side, ‘How can I compensate for them?’. But also, I think organisations often want the perfect ‘dream’ candidate. And it's sometimes a trick question, like, ‘Oh, what are your weaknesses?’ And people are afraid of bringing those up, because no one likes to talk about their weaknesses. But I think being aware of them and being able to capitalise on your strengths and deal with your weaknesses at the same time is key.

Barbara

It's absolutely fundamental. And, you know, I'm not sure if it's true, but someone told me that I am the only enterprise female CEO of a hotel group. And that is shocking because when I was in the cruise industry, I always thought, ‘Oh, everybody thinks that shipping and cruising is really far away in these teams.’ But actually, there are a lot of women CEOs in cruises.

Sean

Well, I was surprised myself. Absolutely. There are a couple of presidents, CEOs, and a lot of senior leadership in the cruise industry, which you would probably associate even more with a male leadership.

Barbara

Well, in the hotel industry that doesn't happen. So you really realise how the typical hotel career is, coming from an hotelier.

I think that maybe in cruising there has been already the switch in understanding that the commercial aspects of the job are probably equal, if not more important, than the operational aspects. And in this sense, it's a little bit of an industry change, because you think, ‘Which are the skills that will make your company successful in the next ten years?’

In the past, of course, in hotels, it was coming from operations and being able to run hotels. Today, you need to have a really good point of view on the product. You need to have really strong commercial capabilities. I personally believe that being very, very good at talent development and management is key. So, you know, it's very different from what would maybe have been the profile of the ideal CEO ten years ago.

Sean

I couldn't agree more. And I think that's a shift we've been seeing as well on the senior media management level, where there is more and more this kind of going away from the pure operations. It’s increasingly a question of commercial understanding, the talent management, as well as the individual leader themselves.

For other aspiring female CEOs within the space, I'd love to hear what kind of resources, networks throughout your career have been the most useful for you?

Barbara

Well, one thing I would like to say is that I'm very proud of the huge advances that our industry has done in promoting women. At the same time, I don't think that women should really aspire to do any job, the same way that men shouldn't aspire to do any job. Honestly, there are specific certain professions in which men are better and there are certain professions in which women are better. And we also need to understand this and not push it too far, because otherwise you're fighting for something that, again, going back to my previous point, you're not leveraging your strengths.

So this is where I think that diversity and equality need to create a common level field for the professions in which both genders have a really strong possibility of competing. And in many of those skills, actually, females are better equipped. Of course, always on average – it’s very difficult to identify. But that doesn't mean you necessarily have to force having a female in every role, because I don't think that is necessarily correct. The same way that you shouldn't have a male in every role. In terms of networks that I have, again, maybe, it's not always females that tend to help other women. I think it's a lot about really finding your network of people who respect you for your professional achievements. And they can be both female or male.

I have to say that most of the mentors and people who really pushed me were men, and some of them were probably not particularly involved in diversity and inclusion causes. I have never found a specific network that would help with the challenge. One thing that is incredibly helpful is LinkedIn. Because in general, again, the first rule of marketing is that if you don't show, you don't sell. And a lot of it is maybe overcoming shyness and making yourself shine. And then in that case, leveraging your network in terms of spreading the word about your capabilities and points of view. Because particularly if you become a very senior executive, you sort of become a brand. And you're only a brand if you stand for something. If you don't stand for anything, you're not a brand. And the same goes with, if everybody likes you, you're not a brand. Because if you are for everybody, you're for nobody.

So maybe the other thing I would say is don't necessarily try to please everybody, and never be afraid of speaking up. Recently, a very, very good candidate was rejected by my boss because he was trying too hard to please.

Sean

Absolutely. And I think it almost goes a little bit hand in hand with knowing your strengths and weaknesses as well. Because normally, people don't like to admit that they have weaknesses. But ultimately, it is what makes us all human and makes us all individuals. So, I like that you brought that up.

Now, obviously, you mentioned talent management as something that is incredibly important. As a CEO in hospitality, we all know there is at least a lack of talent or even the desire to be within the industry. And in the current market particularly, I’d love to hear: what are some of the key traits that you look for when hiring people? What are the key challenges? And then, particularly, what role does diversity, equity, and inclusion play in that hiring process?

Barbara

I think that diversity, equity, and inclusion are fundamental in creating a very diverse dialogue inside the company. The worst thing you can do is create a team of mini-mes.

So, one thing that I personally always look at is, instead of having clones, actually having people who are strong-willed, not afraid to speak up, and who will help me find things I may have overlooked. For me, when you assemble a team, making sure that it's diverse in terms of background, understanding, and point of view is absolutely fundamental.

I think that the other important thing in talent management is trust. Because you cannot build an effective team unless it is really ingrained and built on trust. And this goes back a little bit to the conversation we were having about weakness.

Let’s remember one thing: there are absolute weaknesses that you either overcome or you will never be able to do certain jobs. If you don’t understand finance, forget being a CEO. So, there are certain things that you cannot overlook. But then there are what Bill Clinton aptly called ‘allowable weaknesses’. There are certain weaknesses that, to your point, are fine because they are human. And actually, being able to be very honest about your allowable weaknesses is something that helps build trust with your colleagues and your team.

That’s something I always look for when interviewing candidates. I ask them hard questions, and depending on how comfortable they are in answering, that gives me a good sense of whether I can trust this person. Or, is this person so insecure that they want to hide their weaknesses? If someone says, ‘I'm perfect in all respects’, I think neither of us would ever hire them.

Sean

No, that is very true. And I love those insights, particularly the aspect of cognitive diversity – wanting people who think differently and have different points of view. I think there was a famous TED talk about how we all love to hire people like ourselves. We all love to surround ourselves with people who are exactly the same. But that has never led to great ideas or to challenging the status quo. So, I love hearing that from you.

Barbara

Yeah, and I also think that most hospitality companies are international companies. So, you also have to consider cultural and global aspects. Kempinski is present in 37 different countries. You need to make sure your team understands cultural nuances, particularly when managing large teams. Because it is not the same. Culture, nationality, and religion make a huge difference in how to manage teams effectively. And you want to ensure that within your executive committee or leadership team, there is strength in understanding cultural diversity.

Sean

Absolutely.

Well, thank you so much for all the insight, Barbara. This has been incredibly exciting and interesting. I think our listeners will really enjoy it. So, thank you so much for taking the time today.

Barbara

Well, thank you for having me. It was a wonderful conversation, Sean.

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